Talk:Body integrity dysphoria

Amputation fetish

From the amputation article:

A few people have an "amputation fetish", feeling that they are not "complete" until they have a certain part amputated.

Now isn't there a contradiction if you compare this sentence with what it says at amputation fetish? Personally, I've never heard of that sort of thing before, so either explanation sounds absolutely weird. Who can help? --KF 00:51, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Hmm. As far as I know, amputation fetish does indeed refer to those who are into other kinds of body modification (such as scarring, branding, tattooing, piercing etc.) As I understand it's supposed to be a form of control over ones outward presentation, and specifically of ones will over ones flesh. I think the most usual form is to amputate the tip of a finger or something like that. But I am not an expert. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick

OTOH, I do also know there are porn magazines which feature paraplegics, so... -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick

The new article amputee fetishism describes both the phenomenon of desire for amputees as partners AND the desire to be an amputee. Technically, one could call the former amputee fetishism, second- or third-person desire, and the latter amputation fetish, first-person desire. BlueNight 05:08, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Not a fetish

Isn't it great that this page is a stub?

Apotemnophilia doesn't have to be a fetish for amputation or be of any sexual nature at all. As for transexuals, the personal image of the own body doesn't compare with how the body really looks. The apotemnophilians often describe their body as incomplete without an amputation and can have a life long suffering keeping the arm, leg, hand (or whatever limb the case may be about). User:85.225.242.160

I agree - only this article seems to have been largely written without any input from people with apotemnophilia at all, hence it is less then ideal. As for many similar traits with transsexualism, yes, I completely agree on that; especially the handling of people is extremely similar. And the ICD still lists "transsexualism" right above "fetishism" and "pedophilia"; not quite where it belongs, but to change these things is a Sisyphus' work. -- AlexR 21:05, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Inquiring minds want to know...

• Does this have any relationship to alien hand syndrome?

• AFAIK not, people know their leg (or whatever) is there, and can use it just as the other one. Although, generally, there is not all that much research on the phenomeon, and most is the kind of "how can we fix it" that probably won't yield any results; my impression. [AR]

• Or self-mutilation?

• Technically, it is self-mutilation, although not of the cutting kind. It is also more than concievable that some people suffering from it also self-mutilate with cutting and the like to relieve stress. [AR]

• In general, does removing the limb make these people content, or do they then just fixate on having something else chopped off?

• In general, yes, although I would expect, analogous to transgender people, some problems in some people simply stemming from having had to fight for it so long and all that. Again, afiak no data available on those. [AR]

• How many of those who do succeed in getting an amputation then regret it?

• No data available yet - almost impossible to get surgery any legit way, which would include some sort of thorough psychological assessment first; and those having it done by a quack or pretending accidents probably don't exaclty talk about it. Again, if transgender is anything comparable, the rate would be about 1-2%. [AR]

• Also, is there any crossover / relationship between this and acrotomophilia, the attraction for amputees?

• According to many websites, yes - including people going from fan over wannabe to doing it. Then again, not exactly surprising, you've got ex-trannie-chasers and ex-"transvestites" enough among trans-people. It could be simply a way of reliving those feelings temporarily without having to face the consequences yet. [AR]

-- The Anome 14:40, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

Guess you can tell what I work on mostly, however, in several respects, the parallels are striking (although the underlying condition is different; with the open question about those who wish to get rid of sex-related body parts). Unfortunately for apotemnophiliacs, they are about there where trans-people were 30 or more years ago, in other words, in a shitty position. Seems that at least some of those health care professionals who at least work with them are pioneers in working with trans-people, too. -- AlexR 15:03, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

I guess this gives the phrase "addition by subtraction" new meaning.130.91.117.254 (talk) 18:06, 24 September 2008 (UTC)Eric

BIID and amputees?

Being an amputee isn't the only aspect of BIID! There are people who feel they need to be in a wheelchair. When they go through life they feel like they are "meant" to be a paraplegic, or whatever. I know this because I have this problem. Paraplegic BIID isn't recognised at all compared to amputees. I think this is terrible. Because this isn't recognised, there is no real way of treating it. I heard that DSM IV was going to include BIID in the next publication, but only amputees. Why would someone who wants to use a wheelchair, or live as an amputee, when they physically don't need to need to, be mentally ill? I guess there are two choices with this. Either you are sick in the head and have BIID, or what you do is just plain wrong. I prefer to choose the first option. Although I would never want to place the label of mentally ill on myself, if it is a path towards "treatment" or relief of these feelings I am willing to take it. In the 50s and 60s, transexuals had no "treatment". They had to endure their pain and make do. How is this different to BIID. And then how can amputee BIID be recognised and paraplegic BIID not be? Wouldn't my need to be in a wheelchair be just as valid? Sometimes I feel I would rather be dead than to keep living without a spinal cord injury. Even if I did elect to see a psychologist or a counsellor or something, there is nothing really that could be done, because paraplegic BIID isn't recognised, and no real study has been done on it, there is no real treatment. I believe my only path of treatment is aquiring an SCI, but given the mental health feild's bias on this subject, would this be enough grounds to have them validate surgery? For some people, yes maybe being treated for OCD or something else and having meds works. And maybe for others ignoring it does. I've tried ignoring it. The pain just gets so overwhelming. People discuss and reject my feelings and emotional pain as if these things are a choice. And yet we also agree that my feelings are a form of BIID I "know" I am meant to be a para, and that the way I am now isn't right. So how is it that in this article there is no mention of wheelchair wannabes, and just amputee wannabes? I looked this article up hoping to find more insite into who I am, but was deeply upset to not find any mention of wheelchairs!

This story tells the story of one man's struggle with BIID: https://medium.com/matter/8476df17bddf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.7.12.135 (talk) 21:45, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

I feel the same way about blindness. -- 79.64.243.30 (talk) 18:36, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Remove paralysis

This line

Some people suffer also from the desire of becoming paralyzed.

Seems out of context. On its own, it doesn't seem to fit in the article. I think it needs to be either completed to removed. User:Eje211 17:00, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Remove it?

How is it out of context? The need to be a paraplegic is still BIID. Note BIID means Body Identity Integrity Disorder it isn't Amputee Identity Integrity disorder.

I have been a BIID ever since I can remember,I have always wanted to be a above knee left leg amputee,I feel I'm tottaly "normal' in all aspects of my life but this one overwhemling desire that only becomes more intense the older I grow.I have sucessfully become a double toe amputee on my left foot which I brought about by injuring my foot which nessitated the amputation of two toes,I have type 2 diabetes so this was a good reason to explain injuries which became infected and would not heal.During the course of the last two years I have injured my leg futher and have found a young sugeron who has agreed to give me a below knee amputation due to diabetic complications.I know this alll sounds tottaly off the wall and insane ,but It's the only "cure" I can find to allivate my decades of suffering from this constant overwhemling need to be "correct" in my own body,soul and mind.

BIID Article

The article was almost an advocacy piece for making BIID equivalent to being transgender. Interesting, but I think not appropriate for Wikipedia. I edited it, but left in most of the editorialising attributed to BIID advocates/patients. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.245.218.64 (talk • contribs) 23:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Certainly the bit you removed was very badly written, but you ought to be aware that there are indeed several similarities between BIID and TG, particilarly in the reaction of other people to the respective conditions. And since that is AFAIK documented as well, I don't see why this does not belong into the WP. -- AlexR 05:23, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, they are both forms of self harm and should be dealt with similarly by WP. Chrononem ☎ 14:47, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Compassion and Understanding is Key

My sister told me last night about BIID and I had to do some research on the subject today. I've worked with all different types of people in my life and was so curious about this condition (?).

After reading what everybody wrote I agree with Alex that more compassion and understanding is needed. While BIID is clearly not the norm its interesting how folks seem to react with such disdain about things that are different. I wish more people would first be curious, seek to understand, and have compassion. We have such little tolerance for ideas, people, situations outside of the norm.

That said, sometimes it is easy to want a "quick fix" to complex mental and emotional problems. We go to dr. after dr. looking for answers and help and often times, in my experience, we don't get it. I don't have BIID, but I think we can all relate, to a certain degree, to suffering, being obessessd, feeling different, and having mental thoughts that make us physically sick. I also know how easy it is when you don't get quick answers to want to give up and take drastics measures. I would say to those in that state, be strong and don't let the fact that little research has been done on the topic stop you from getting the support you need. Form a group of like minded peers, create awareness, increase understanding. I can only imagine the pain people with BIID go thru and at the same time feel that it is so permanent to remove limbs that I would want to be open to all possibilities that could alter a BIID mindset before going thru with any removal, no?

I can understand while the person who had lost their leg may be angry or think "how can a person WANT to cut off their leg" when she has suffered so much in her loss. It is clear that she is still grieving and who am I to judge her anger. I just hope that we can expand our minds, reach out to those that are suffering in any form, and listen to their pain and be empathetic. I'm not implying this will make the condition subside, but will they feel more accepted and loved as a result- yes! I always say..start where people are...and not where you think they need to be. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Curiousmind (talk • contribs) 18:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

BIID Suggestion

While I was watching Primetime tonight about people that have this urge from the time they are little to be amputees--I immediately thought of a possible answer. I know people will think this is crazy, but what if there is such a thing as reincarnation? What if these people were amputees in their previous lives? I think it makes perfect sense. Not that these people should not be treated with an antidepressant or some medication. But at least this could be a possible explanation behind their strong feelings.

If they believe that this could be a possibility and that it could be cured or fixed with medication dampering this urge--it could at least help their suffering. Sometimes not knowing why can drive people crazy. There are people that have psychic abilities, people that can sense ghosts, people that think they can heal. There are so many unusual things that people might be capable of feeling, thinking or doing. We only are using 10 percent of our brains. What if 90% of our untapped brain has capabilities that we just are not aware of? We used to be positive that the world was flat. How did the Mayans know about calendars? Why is their calendar more accurate than our current calendars? Watch the History and Discovery Channel and you will keep an open mind about many things.

Again, I know it sounds crazy, but strange things do exist. Many people are afraid to admit having an open mind for fear of redicule. But, some of the most ingenious of ideas and discoveries were also rediculed at first.

-Some of the stupidest ideas are also ridiculed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.75.58.163 (talk) 12:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Robots

I removed the following from the article

Some individuals, when asked why they want a limb to be cut off, explain that they have three legs and want to have two just like everyone else. The third leg is between the other two. In the building of robots, it is sometimes required that a middle "third leg" be programmed. This third leg does not exist, but it must be programmed in order to have functioning robots that walk on two legs. The middle third leg is a harmonic of the other two. This may suggest that some people are simply aware of their "third leg", which everyone would have to have in order to walk, and that it may not be a psychological pathology per se.

Although nothing is currently cited in the article, to me this section stands out as highly questionable. Does anyone have a cite for anything in the paragraph? --TeaDrinker 21:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

why focus on amputation?

this article seems to focus too much on amputation as the sole type of biid. most people i know who have biid have other types, such as being in wheelchair or being blind, for example.--Sonjaaa 11:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

No references in research

Sonjaaa, I tend to agree with you, it's very important to discuss the fact that BIID is about more than just amputations. Unfortunately, until, and unless, research papers talk about the fact that there are non-amputee BIID, we can't really state it here. It's a bit of a chicken vs. egg problem, because researchers and journalist keep on focusing on amputation, since everyone speaks about amputation and no one speaks about other required impairment. I have great hopes for Dr. First's study, though things are being delayed somewhat at this point. Wylz 03:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Sonjaa. Although practically all serious information about BIID that one can find on Internet focus on people who want some amputation, I know from my own experience and many discussions that there are many other forms, or better to say, external representations of BIID. Sonja mentioned wheelchair (some BIID people want to be paralyzed) and blindness, I found people who want to be deaf (they pretend deafness by wearing hearing aids) or visually impaired (although not blind). The problems with this topic are:

1. There are too few serious studies and scientific resources as the phenomenon has not been researched in depth so far.

2. All people I know who could say something about it are those who suffer from a kind of BIID, so they cannot fulfil the NPOV.

3. All I know about it is my own investigation and research, and I am not a psychologist nor a psychiatrist, so I cannot contribute what I know about it without being accused of NPOV and/or publication results of my own research.

Anyway, I hope one day the article will be longer and brings more information. Good Wiki pros will find the way how to enlarge it, if it is discussed enough here.

Bobby --82.100.0.70 (talk) 21:01, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Dr.First's Study

Dr. First has begun his follow-up study on BIID. Read more about it on biid-info.org Wylz 10:40, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Removed the call to participate in this study. Though probably a good cause, I do not believe the call has encyclopaedic value. Furthermore, potential participants are highly likely to find a reference to the study on one of the external links or on this discussion page. 80.175.91.125 23:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

Is it a violation of WP:NPOV to use terms like "disorder" and "suffering" in relation to this condition? I realize that the books use this sort of language, but I think we should stick to the more neutral term "condition" when not quoting directly. As I understand it, a condition only crosses the line into a disorder if the individual themself feels it is adversely affecting their life. Aelffin 15:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

No problem with that

Aelfin, considering that the name of the condition is Body Integrity Identity Disorder, I think there's no issue with talking about disorders. As someone who has *suffered* from BIID for the last 35 or so years, I can tell you that it is adversely affecting our lives (you may wish to read one of my blog entries about it). No, I really don't see a problem with refering to disorder, nor the use of the word (or even concept) of suffering. Wylz 10:36, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Wylz, thanks for your comment. I'll take a look at your blog. Clearly, most people with body identity differences do suffer a great deal, but my concern is that there are some--a small number to be sure--who feel that society's pathologizing of their preferred body image is the source of the suffering, rather than the body image itself. Aelffin (talk) 14:11, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Aelfin, sorry it's taken so long for me to get back to this. The question of pathologizing BIID or not is certainly one that engenders discussion in BIID circles. I have my own opinion which would probably be too long to discuss here :) However, I would argue that it's not society's pathologizing of the condition that's the problem, or the cause of suffering, but rather the innability of the medical establishment to proceed with surgeries.Wylz (talk) 06:14, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Double Standard

How is this a disorder only when it isn't applied to genitalia? We shouldn't treat this any different from Gender Dysphoria, either treat them both as a disorder or treat them both as an identity crisis. Chrononem ☎ 14:45, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Weasel words

What's with all the weasel-words? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.225.177.21 (talk) 05:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Neurological?

Really? Is there anything like consensus that the condition is neurological? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.200.166.227 (talk) 07:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Although a great many sexologists (including me) do indeed believe that BIID has at least largely neurological, there is no good research by which to come to any real conclusion at all.— James Cantor (talk) 13:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Expert opinion needed

Looking at the discussion, it would appear that there are a lot more people with the condition working on this article than medical professionals. It strikes me that this might lead to a very one-sided representation of the subject. Perhaps an expert needs to look at this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.200.166.227 (talk) 07:37, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you, at least in principle. My experience on WP pages about sexual interests, however, is just as you describe: Most of the contributors are enthusiasts rather than scholars on the topic, and the enthusiasts greatly dislike any research that departs from their political views. This slows (even halts) progress.

Although I personally support the civil rights of anyone with any sexual interest and support the destigmatization of those interests, many (but not all) enthusiasts use WP as an opportunity to effect social change rather than to summarize existing RS's on the topic. I have been through this a great many times now, on pages such as paraphilic infantilism, autogynephilia (and anything remotely related transsexuality), and intersexuality, for examples.

— James Cantor (talk) 13:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

"Although I personally support the civil rights of anyone with any sexual interest"

You personally support? Mr. Cantor, I find that statement ridiculous, coming from an out gay man - someone who's been discriminated against, who is ridiculed, made fun of, set aside, harassed, poked fun at in the street, called all those four letter names you can think of. You personally support LGBT rights other than stricly gay rights? Wow. Generous of you, thought it's not your obligation in any way. Thank heavens for small mercies upon us bestow'd!

By the way, transsexuality and interssexuality, are not sexual interests, nor vaguely related, unlike your personal condition. You are also not a confirmed scholar on these matter, but considered by many to be a quack. And also a sock-puppet, vandalising user who has been blocked quite a few times around here. 87.196.228.62 (talk) 15:45, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

External links

I've moved the following to the talk page. They were in the external links section, but they are much more accurately labelled "unintegrated sources". The EL section is not a place to put sources that haven't been used yet, it's for pretty specific stuff. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 02:16, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

• Bensler JM, Paauw DS (2003). "Apotemnophilia masquerading as medical morbidity". South. Med. J. 96 (7): 674–6. doi:10.1097/01.SMJ.0000078367.94479.B9. PMID 12940318. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
• Bridy A (2004). "Confounding extremities: surgery at the medico-ethical limits of self-modification" (PDF). J Law Med Ethics. 32 (1): 148–58. doi:10.1111/j.1748-720X.2004.tb00460.x. PMID 15152438.
• Bruno, Richard L. (Winter 1997). "Devotees, Pretenders, and Wannabes: Two Cases of Factitious Disability Disorder". Sexuality and Disability. 15 (4): 243–60. doi:10.1023/A:1024769330761.
• First MB (2005). "Desire for amputation of a limb: paraphilia, psychosis, or a new type of identity disorder". Psychol Med. 35 (6): 919–28. doi:10.1017/S0033291704003320. PMID 15997612. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
• Bayne T, Levy N (2005). "Amputees by choice: body integrity identity disorder and the ethics of amputation". J Appl Philos. 22 (1): 75–86. doi:10.1111/j.1468-5930.2005.00293.x. PMID 15948330.
• Wise TN, Kalyanam RC (2000). "Amputee fetishism and genital mutilation: case report and literature review". J Sex Marital Ther. 26 (4): 339–44. doi:10.1080/009262300438742. PMID 11056898.

Diabetes and tumors

I think the article should separate those who want to amputate because they have BIID and those who want to amputate because they have a severe condition like diabetes or a tumor. I added the following to the article

, without medical justification for amputation,

But it could be argued BIID is a medical justification for amputation. Andrea Carter (at your service | my good deeds) 06:53, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Can someone give me the page number for "Transability" in the DSM-5?

""Transability", an almost identical disorder, is medically recognized by the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-5, but BIID is not."

I cannot find "transability" in the DSM-5, nor can I find anything referencing it. Can anyone give me a page number for it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by NicholaiJS (talk • contribs) 21:13, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Revised Body Integrity Identity Disorder

I think you have come up with a good solution for the dueling articles on Apotemnophilia and Body Integrity Identity Disorder --it's minimalistic but it fits Wikipedia.Neurorel (talk) 04:38, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 27 June 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Cúchullain ^t/c 14:26, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

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Body integrity identity disorder → Body integrity dysphoria – ICD-11 uses this name.[1] Itwheelchair (talk) 00:23, 27 June 2018 (UTC) Itwheelchair (talk) 00:23, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

• Does ICD-11 dictate our article titles? (That's a rhetorical question.) What is the most common name in recent-ish reliable sources? "ICD-11 says so" isn't a move rationale.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:33, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Of course ICD is not the only source to take into account to decide a title, but it is a very important one. Note that the manual of style for medical articles expressly advises to use it when choosing a title for articles about diseases (WP:NCMED), as well as for categorizing them (WP:MEDMOS#Categories). Itwheelchair (talk) 22:13, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Support Body integrity identity disorder was coined to parallel gender identity disorder, given at the time to transgender people who suffered due to being transgender, and became the go-to term for this group, but body integrity identity disorder has no diagnostic criteria and while it is mentioned in the DSM, it isn't a diagnosis there. Body integrity dysphoria has criteria more specific than most people's idea of BIID (excluding "pretenders" who don't suffer) and is a formally recognized diagnosis. 108.245.173.217 (talk) 02:00, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

I don't think it's very adequate to use "transabled" in this article, considering how it's a term used to attack both disabled and trans people alike

"People with this condition may refer to themselves as transabled." Do they, though? Mercury.ascended (talk) 00:20, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

@Mercury.ascended i agree, i think a section should be appended on discussing the pushback against the term, as it hijacks language used to talk about gender identity and transgender people in a way that perpeatuates harm. some people do genueinely use the term so i think that is a factual statement, but many people argue its use is degrading to the trans community and that should be mentioned to balance the article, since right now it reads as if the term is an accepted identity when it very much is not. 82.29.77.60 (talk) 15:38, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Non-amputation examples

Are there cases of self-identified “transabled” people who desire to have other disabilities, including those which _can’t_ actually be acquired in adulthood? I seem to recall reading somewhere about a person believing they should have had Down syndrome, and not feeling authentically like themselves without it.

Down syndrome, of course, is something you’re either born with or you’re not, and it can’t be acquired later, unlike amputee status, blindness, or deafness. Wanting to have Down syndrome (when you actually don’t) almost seems analogous to the otherkin subculture in a way, since they are longing for a transformation that is literally impossible. If there’s been any documentation of such “impossible” desires among people with BIID, it should probably be mentioned in the article. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:F2CD (talk) 21:32, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

This article makes me want to rip my eyes out

Literally filledddd with tangents and completely unnecessary words. So many random opinions throughout. How do we fix this. I don't want to make a Wikipedia account. 2603:8080:25F0:F8A0:2967:4630:7707:6920 (talk) 02:47, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

You can always be bold and remove the information you find unneeded or place cleanup tags as needed. IntentionallyDense (talk) 13:59, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

No link to Michael First's research

"In 2004 Michael First published the first clinical research in which he surveyed fifty-two people with the condition, a quarter of whom had undergone an amputation. Based on that work, First coined the term "body integrity identity disorder" to express what he saw as more of an identity disorder than a paraphilia"

The reference for this sentence refers to a completely different article by a different author. And looking at Michael First's publications, I can't find any relevant paper for 2004. Needs to be looked at. I really need to see the work that coined the term "Body Integrity Identity Disorder" TSolarPrincess (talk) 11:21, 24 December 2024 (UTC)